FinPod

Meeyeon (00:00)
Hi everyone and welcome to another episode of CFI's Careers in Finance series. I'm your host, Meeyeon and of course we are here to share the unique and inspiring stories from finance professionals around the world. And today I am so honored to be joined by Hayley Rosenlund who is an executive coach and former capital markets leader who's built her career across London and Paris. So.

The funny way that I found Hayley is ⁓ the LinkedIn algorithm was really working for me. ⁓ I have a friend who was in capital markets for 30 plus years and she's now largely retired but still engaged in the finance community through executive coaching. And Hayley popped up as a suggestion and I was so curious and I'm so glad that I did. ⁓

⁓ In today's episode, we're going to hear from Hayley about her career and how she managed to achieve such success in an incredibly competitive and tough industry and so much more. Now, I don't want to give away too much, so we're going to dive right in. So, Hayley, my first question to you is the one that I always share with everyone.

How did you get your interest in ⁓ finance initially? Did you have a parent that was in the industry? Were you inspired by media? How did you get your interest in finance?

Hayley (01:18)
Yeah, well first of all, thank you for such a nice introduction and thank you for welcoming me on the podcast. So in short, no, I didn't have a friend or family member.

involved in the industry and actually I had no exposure to the world of finance whatsoever before I moved to London. So I studied at SFU at the undergraduate level in economics and actually I didn't like my finance modules and actively avoided taking more of them. So my interest really peaked when I moved to London to study at the LSE and finance is kind of just ubiquitous in London. ⁓

It's just everywhere from the buildings to kind of the suits walking around in the city to the people who you meet. And so I just got curious and I also felt it was a challenge. And so I wanted to challenge myself to break into this mythical world of finance. And quite honestly, I also needed a good paying job because of the level of my student loans.

Meeyeon (02:24)
And how did you actually get your, ⁓ how did you get your very first role in finance? That's always a tough one. The first one is always a tough step.

Hayley (02:30)
Yes.

It is, yeah. And my first role in finance was an internship at Credit Agricole. And there's a funny story around this actually, and it shows how little I knew when I was getting into this world. So the first role I applied for at Credit Agricole was ⁓ in fixed income sales.

And when I applied for the role, I was living in the LSE student accommodations and I had to go knock on my neighbor's door to ask her what fixed income was. ⁓ So she told me and I was like, okay, off I go to apply to this job I know nothing about.

Anyway, I didn't get that one, but ultimately I did get an internship with Credit Agricole in their commodities team. So that was my first role. It was a six month placement actually. And during that time, they weren't giving me a lot of visibility as to whether they would offer me a full time role. So I started applying for graduate roles at other banks and ultimately secured a graduate role.

capital markets and so decided to leave to take that opportunity rather than stay on a credit card.

Meeyeon (03:44)
And then when you took on that role, I wonder if you first saw that you would be there for over 10 years. You spent over a decade at RBC, which is a huge feat in and of itself. I always think that whenever I see on someone's resume that they spent over 10 years at any institution, it really just speaks volumes about the person, their character, and generally that they're a likable and dedicated person. Because it's not easy to stay anywhere for 10 years. ⁓

You were leading large sales teams across London and Paris, which is sort of my dream. ⁓ But what drew you into sales and trading initially? And then I'm curious about what kept you there because it is a really tough role. ⁓ I personally, I've worked with a lot of people in sales and trading. And I wouldn't I would say like, you know, at a distance because I was in debt capital markets in origination. So they were just mainly my colleagues that, you know, I would have.

I would have fun and how to have lunch with, we never necessarily worked together, but I understood their role and the challenges of it were things that I would never be able to do. Cause it's lot of pressure. ⁓ How did you stay there for so long and how did you enjoy it when you first started? What was it like?

Hayley (05:00)
Yeah, so let me break down your question into parts. So how did I get into it? Yeah, what drew me in? mean, the truth is pure chance. I mean, as I said before, I kind of knew nothing about this world. But the one thing that helped me is I knew what I didn't want. And I knew that I didn't want like a classical investment banking role or to work in M &A or any.

Meeyeon (05:06)
Yes, what drew you in?

Hayley (05:26)
because the hours were too extreme. I wanted to work hard, but I didn't want to give my entire life to my job and work 18 hour days and what kind of traditionally comes with &A. So that left sales and trading as a default. ⁓ And yet, like I said, I didn't know what I was getting into, but what kept me there is it actually ended up being a very good fit. ⁓

come from a strong sporting background, so competition is something I absolutely love and thrive on. ⁓ I'm very much a work hard, play hard type of person. ⁓

So those things kept me very engaged ⁓ and also kind of the nature of the team I was in and the work we were doing. We were kind of underdogs who were outperforming in a very competitive market and I learned that I loved building something. I loved working as a team and I loved setting and achieving ambitious goals. So that kind of culture and atmosphere of the trading floor kept me there for so long.

Meeyeon (06:33)
And

did you join a group of either, I think, associates or analysts, it would probably be associates at the graduate degree level. Did you come in with a group of people that were a similar age, similar background, and go through a giant training program?

Hayley (06:47)
Yes, so I joined on like the graduate program. What was amusing though is that I was several years older than everyone else who joined. So in the UK it's standard to do a three-year undergraduate degree, which means and people apply for their jobs directly from there because there's so much opportunity for on-the-job training in London versus in Canada when people study and specialize much more. So people applying for graduate positions in London are 21 years old.

I was 25 because I did an honors degree at the undergraduate level. took a gap year. did my masters. I took a gap year. So I was 25. And I remember one of the guys saying to me at some point, you're like the mom of the group. What kind of 25-year-olds wants to hear that? Like, I'm not the mom of the group.

Meeyeon (07:32)
my god.

I'm also only like

three or four years older than you, please.

Hayley (07:42)
Exactly, yeah, so anyway, so I did join in the graduate program and it was really cool. We went to New York for a month. So that was just like the experience of a lifetime getting to live in New York and ⁓ the real.

Meeyeon (07:45)
my gosh.

Hayley (08:00)
and you know we attended the trainings but we partied every night and I made lifelong relationships and friendships with the people there not only from the London cohort but I have a good friend in Hong Kong that I met on the graduation

Meeyeon (08:18)
I remember I went through that program when I went into DCM and it was so crazy how that small experience, it was I think only two weeks or so, two and a half weeks, but we all work in different teams and we got together two weeks, but that bonded us for so, so much of our career.

Hayley (08:37)
Yeah. Yeah.

Meeyeon (08:39)
And

when you were at RBC, what would you say were some of your biggest professional challenges that you faced during those years? And because a lot of our listeners, their dream is to be in that sales and trading cohort. And it's tough to get in. There's only, there's very, very few spots. And a lot of those listening are going to be gearing up to start applying and be interviewing for those roles during the next recruitment cycle.

And I think a lot of people would love to hear about what were some of your biggest challenges that you faced when you were at RBC in that role for the time and how did you overcome and how did you go through those challenges?

Hayley (09:21)
Yeah, yeah, so I'll talk about this from like kind of an early career perspective. ⁓ One of the first challenges that I faced is that I transitioned from trading to sales after about three years in the job.

And I desperately wanted to be a So, you I wanted to... There were a lot of, you know, good examples and role models of women working in sales roles, but there were very few female traders. And I really wanted to, like, smash the glass ceiling, prove that women could do the job as well as men. But the fact of the matter is I just did not enjoy it. And...

Meeyeon (10:03)
Mm.

Hayley (10:06)
learned I wasn't particularly suited to it. I'm quite a risk-averse person which you know can be helpful in trading context but it does require a certain amount of risk-taking and I wasn't particularly decisive in the role and trading is all about quick decision-making so you know not only did I enjoy this role and not not

this role, I wasn't particularly well suited to it, but I kind of had attached like a dream, a goal, or even an identity to it. So letting go of that was quite challenging and just allowing myself to reorient towards something that I might be better suited towards and more successful at ⁓ was a big shift for me early on.

And then I would say away from that, everything just feels like such a crash course in the start of your career. I remember for the first time that there were redundancies on the trading floor, for example, and how like...

impacted and shocked I felt to watch people just, you know, be exited from the business and then also watching kind of the very relaxed attitude of the team members around me, you know, who had seen this so many times it wasn't to shock for them, but for me it was a really big deal. Managing different personalities is a big thing.

My first, I had a boss who wasn't particularly interested in leadership or training and so I had to figure out different ways of developing myself. And ⁓ I had to be quite bold and creative about that actually. I remember one time he was going to a client meeting that I wanted to go to and I asked him if I could come and he said no. And I thought, well.

I'm not taking no for an answer. So I went to talk to the salesperson who was leading the meeting and I talked to her about how I was so eager to learn about how we interact with clients and that I would really love to attend the meeting. And she was like, well, absolutely, you should attend the meeting. Let me speak to your boss for you. And she did. And sure enough, I got invited to the meeting. So just managing situations like that. ⁓

And then another interesting one I faced is, you when I joined the trading desk, the kind of the graduate always had a set of responsibilities that they had to do that they took care of for the whole desk, like admin tasks and whatnot. And so, you know, after I had been in the role for a year and we hired a new graduate, I was excited to hand over all of those admin tasks and take on new responsibility. But this guy just refused to do them. ⁓

Meeyeon (12:50)
⁓

Hayley (12:51)
And it felt like a real slap in the face at the time. And I remember people coming to me asking me to help them with things because he said he didn't know how to do it even though he did. And being really upset about that. And them saying, do you know what? Like, I know it's annoying, but this doesn't reflect badly on you, it reflects badly on him.

this guy I can say was still an associate when I made director. So it just shows, you know, there's, there are things that come up that feel really frustrating at the time, but if you just like continue to do what you know is right and continue to try to like add value to the team and support your team members, you get where you want to go in the end.

And then I feel like I've been talking on this topic for a long time, but maybe just one more to add is, you know this moment when you're hired as a graduate and the expectation of you is to learn, support, do admin.

And then at some point you become a producer and learning, supporting an admin is not good enough. You're really expected to earn your seat and that shift and that transition is a really scary one and a really big one.

Meeyeon (14:08)
Okay, I'm going to ask you about that next, but I want to comment on something ⁓ that I think is really valuable for everyone listening. You said that you did your honours degree, your undergraduate degree, and then you took a gap year and then you did your masters and then you took a gap year. Now, for a lot of, think at least myself and I would say a lot of people in America generally, we have this urge to like constantly like be on the move to the next challenge. ⁓ But I find that

it takes a lot of confidence to go down your own path and say, you know what, like, I'm going to do my undergraduate degree. I'm going to do a gap year. I'm going to do this thing next. I'm going to travel. I'm going to be able to do all of these things in between. Where did you get that type of confidence? Because for me, I remember I graduated. They call it off cycle because I wanted to take some time off and

Hayley (15:00)
Mm-hmm.

Bye.

Meeyeon (15:04)
That was really challenging for me. For me, like I didn't necessarily know what I was doing, but what I realized was when I was graduating off cycle, how challenging it was because the recruiting cycle was not working for me. Luckily for me, I was an intern at a place called Ontario Teachers Pension Plan in Canada and fixed income. ⁓ And I just went back to my team because they had a contract available and then eventually found me my job at Bewell Capital Markets. But I don't...

Hayley (15:13)
Mmm.

Yeah.

Meeyeon (15:33)
think that if I had known really what I was doing and the opportunities that I was missing, I don't think I would have had the confidence to make the decisions like, I'm gonna take this time off here. Where did you get that confidence?

Hayley (15:48)
interesting. I'm trying to put myself back in the shoes of like 22 year old me who is making these decisions. I'm not sure if it was confidence. I think I was shooting from the hip. I finished my undergrad and I had planned to go traveling in Southeast Asia with my best friend and like before we were gonna leave she went to Geneva to an internship and she called me one day and she was like

I don't want to leave. I want to stay here and I think you should come.

So my kind of plans for this backpacking trip got slashed and then I was like, well, why not? Like, okay, I'll go to Geneva instead. So I went to Geneva and I did a horrible internship first. my gosh, it was so boring. was like, numbing. It was awful. But I somehow lucked out and managed to swindle my way into an internship at the UN. And so I ended up working at the UN for three months, which was...

Meeyeon (16:47)
Yeah, I was gonna ask you about that, because I thought that was

really unique part of your resume. was like, not everybody gets to do that.

Hayley (16:52)
Yeah, yeah, that was really cool. So I just sent emails and there was, I worked for what's called the UN Office on Sport for Development and Peace and

Given I was an athlete, I thought, wow, that's really cool. I would love to work there. So I emailed them. And just by stroke of luck, they were looking for a native English speaker to help with a lot of diplomatic correspondences and writing work. And so they brought me in and gave me a writing test. And I met the head of the office at the time. ⁓ And we gelled really well. And they gave me the job. ⁓ So.

It was fantastic, but what I learned from that was that working in international organizations or the public sector was probably not going to be for me.

And so that informed my next decision, which was to get my masters. And I chose a management program in London, which would give me the flexibility to go into the public sector or private sector after, depending on what more I learned about myself. And then...

The gap year after LSE was not necessarily intentional. It was, I was studying so hard that I didn't put enough focus into my job applications. So, you know, while everyone else was, you know, mostly sending job applications and studying, not very much, I did the opposite. So I didn't have an offer at the end of my year at LSE. So that's when I took the placement at Credit Agricole. So I had like six months of work and then during that time I got my graduate program. So,

Yeah, that's, I wish I could say it was confidence, but it was more just like shooting from the hip. It did. Yeah, it worked out.

Meeyeon (18:35)
But I didn't mean like it worked out really well.

And ⁓ you talked about how you go from being kind of the graduate on the desk, someone that does a lot of the, like just general support of the senior sales team, as well as all of the kind of like catch all bucket admit tasks that always fall on a graduate. ⁓ But transitioning from that to being a producer, that is...

That's gotta be tough. That's a lot of pressure. Like, where do you, like, how do you start? Like, how does that change begin? Because I'd love to understand from your perspective, what type of like skill or mindset do you think creates someone that is able to go from that graduate student to a high performing salesperson and leader?

Hayley (19:29)
⁓ Yeah, good question. So if we look at it from the kind of sales perspective, ⁓ your first, you know, it generally takes like a year on the desk of just supporting and learning and shadowing before your head of sales would feel comfortable giving you your first clients. And then you would normally be given like very small clients to kind of learn the ropes and practice on. ⁓

⁓ And then if you're successful there, you keep getting larger and larger clients as they become available and you kind of build your portfolio of clients like that. ⁓ And in order to build that portfolio of clients, what skills and mindsets are important? So first of all, would say for any role, sales, trading, DCM, structuring, whatever it is.

Like there's some basic boxes to tick. ⁓ know, hard work, eagerness to learn, a desire for excellence, ⁓ attention to detail, ⁓ humility, emotional intelligence. These things are things that will stand anyone in good stead. From a sales perspective, I think skills that are particularly underrated are listening and authenticity.

So I think a lot of people think sales is all about being bubbly, the life of the party, like pitching hard. And sales is so much about trying to get your client to speak, to learn whatever you can about your client so that you can use that information to make relevant, not recommendations to them, but to pitch them the relevant things.

And I always say, you know, a credit analyst, their job is to like understand the companies, the balance sheets, the credit fundamentals. The trader's job is to understand their sector, the flows, the liquidity. A sales job is to understand your client. And you can't understand your client if you don't stop talking and listen to them. ⁓ Equally, authenticity. ⁓ I just think...

it comes across so false to try to be best friends with your every client or ⁓ put on a face of what you think a salesperson is. I think just being yourself and seeing how relationships evolve naturally is a much better skill to bring to the table in sales. And then I think persistence and grit are always required.

And then you asked about mindsets as well, so just to touch on that briefly, I think the important thing to say is there's no one winning mindset. I think this is really individual. What's true and universal is that clearly like a positive, encouraging, supportive mindset is better than a very critical and negative one. ⁓

But mindset can mean so many different things. ⁓ But yeah, it is very empowering to lock in on a mindset that supports you rather than takes you down internally, if that makes sense.

Meeyeon (22:46)
And one of the things that we get a lot of questions on lately from everyone that's either a current or aspiring finance professional, particularly in capital markets is, ⁓ do you find that the way that a sales team is built today is a little bit different generally with the surgence of AI? the role of a, let's say like fixed income sales leader, the head of fixed income has that?

role in your in your opinion changed a great deal today kind of versus the past like over I guess 10 years ago.

Hayley (23:25)
Yeah, so I would say the role of a salesperson and the role of a sales leader have both evolved tremendously. So when I joined the trading floor, electronic trading was a thing, but not the biggest thing. We were still, by and large, getting on the phone and executing voice trades with our clients or doing them over the chat where you have a kind of...

negotiation process where you're talking back and forth. you know, does that make sense? yeah, back and forth negotiation.

Meeyeon (23:56)
Yeah.

Hayley (23:59)
Electronic trading changes the game because first of all you're usually putting competition with a higher numbers of competitors and B, it eliminates that negotiation process where you can get some ⁓ color and transparency on the pricing process as you negotiate. It's kind of usually the ticket pops up, the trader needs to put in their best price and it's executed without the chance to intervene. Now,

As a sales team, we always did try to intervene and that was kind part of our job, was trying to use our relationships to get any kind of color we could throughout that execution in order to win the trade for our team. But...

Yeah, it was an innovation in execution that fundamentally changed the role of the salesperson, the importance of relationships, and what clients were looking for in their counterparties. It became much more focused on price as opposed to relationship, size, ⁓ trustworthiness, whatever else a bank can provide to their counterparties.

⁓ And I think we continue to see that process go further and further so in the last few years of my career a big trend was portfolio trading and that's kind of like electronic trading on crack because then you're talking about like Sometimes huge portfolios you may have a client looking to execute 1 billion euros worth of business in one trade ⁓ And so, know that requires the bank to you know, that would be done voice that wouldn't be done electronically But it means a lot of

risk transferring hands in a short period of time without the market seeing it. Again, it was just an innovation in execution method which banks had to adapt to. know, banks then had to start to develop.

trading desks. A lot of them are still losing money on this business but clients want it. So you know a big question and topic for trading desk currently is you know how do we provide portfolio trading profitably kind of balancing that desire to provide the customer with the solutions that they're looking for from an execution point of view but also maintaining their profitability.

And you know you bring up AI and that will be the next thing that really disrupts the finance world and the way that trades are executed and I don't yet know what that looks like but what I am certain of is that there will be a need for fewer traders and salespeople in the future.

I think the people who do stay in the roles, the nature of that role will look very different.

Meeyeon (27:00)
Now, I'm going to do a shifting of gears. I wanted to talk about your, I think you're, so one of the things that really drew me in after I saw your profile was that you are a really visible advocate for gender parity and finance. I want to ask about what your perspective is on the progress that you've seen over the past kind of 10, 15 years and what you still think needs to change. And

The reason why I ask that is because personally, and this is something that I think listeners and like learners of CFI would not know about me, but I've never really been good about addressing that there is a gender disparity in the industry and it's very prominent and it has been an enduring one. ⁓ I have never been able to really address it or think about it because it always made me really nervous.

Hayley (27:50)
Hmm. ⁓

Meeyeon (27:58)
⁓ I didn't see, for example, when I started on the trading floor, there was three other women and they were much more senior than me. And on top of that, when I entered the trading floor, it was the first place that I'd ever been a visible minority. Like I'm Korean, I'm Asian, I usually see tons of me everywhere, whether I'm in LA, New York, Vancouver, Toronto, but it was the first place where I was like, wow, like I...

Hayley (28:17)
Mm.

Meeyeon (28:28)
I'm very different from the crowd and it made it very difficult for me to address it. didn't think that, I didn't think it was a good thing to like bring attention to for me. was just like, you know what, like I am just going to work hard, do a good job, be the kind of like humble, eager person that I am, do the best I can. And that is like, that's all I need to do. And like,

Hayley (28:34)
Bye.

Hmm.

Meeyeon (28:56)
bringing attention on the fact that I am a minority, there are fewer women in finance, that was something that I just never really knew how to address and never really thought that I could properly advocate for because I couldn't really even address it properly. So when I saw your LinkedIn profile and of course I did a lot of Googling and searching, was like, that's really amazing.

⁓ And so I would just love to hear your perspective on how you think that progress has been over the past decade and what you still think needs to change.

Hayley (29:29)
Yeah. Yeah, so I'm actually so happy to say that I think there has been a lot of progress. ⁓ So, you know, one story from my side. On my, I think it was my second day of work on the graduate program, a much older man asked me out and was quite like pushy when I when I said no, thank you. Didn't really take no for an answer. And it was super uncomfortable, like very uncomfortable.

Meeyeon (29:54)
my God.

Hayley (29:58)
And I mean, that's one example. I've had experiences like this with inappropriate comments and situations. And I'm happy to say I genuinely don't feel like this happens as much anymore. I think the industry has ticked the boxes and taken care of like the low hanging fruit, like these kinds of examples. However, the opportunity for improvement remains absolutely immense.

Meeyeon (30:01)
Ugh.

Yeah.

Hayley (30:26)
You know, now what we see is that hiring at the graduate level for most banks is relatively equal across genders. However...

women are dropping out of the workforce and so they're not reaching the same seniority as men, which is creating relatively significant gender pay gaps in the industry. And there's so much that needs to change to address that. And I won't go into all of them in detail because we could talk about that for hours, but you know, for me it's stuff like parental leave policies. And notice I'm not saying maternity leave policies, I'm saying parental leave. Men need to be able to take parental leave in order to

Meeyeon (30:50)
Mm-hmm.

Hayley (31:04)
level the playing field when ⁓ a company sees a man and a woman of childbearing age show up at the door so that they feel that there's an equal likelihood that these people will take leave from work and therefore there's an equal incentive to hire or not hire each of them. ⁓ I also think there's a lot of work to do in corporate culture and values. There's a lot of work to do on tackling unconscious bias that affects women.

There's a lot of work to do in mentorship and sponsorship programs to better support women. And these are just some examples ⁓ of things that the corporate world could do better in order to have more women reach more senior positions and stay in the industry.

Meeyeon (31:51)
And ⁓ something that I always think is a funny comment that you've made before, because I've had a similar comment before from someone that's probably a lot younger than me, but the mom comment. ⁓ At first, I was just like, I remember the first time I heard that, was like, what an off-putting comment. You're calling me old. the older I get, the more I actually think that is.

Hayley (32:05)
How are you?

Yeah.

Meeyeon (32:17)
huge compliment first because you know I have become a mom on my own and I understand what that takes. But it is it's kind of largely someone just saying like I think that you are first of all a good mentor that you have good experience and that you are someone that is probably a bit likable and like they see you as like a trustworthy mentor in the career that they're in.

Hayley (32:23)
Okay.

Meeyeon (32:46)
Have there been any mentors or moments that have shaped how you show up as a leader for people and particularly for women in finance?

Hayley (32:55)
Yeah, so you know the first thing I want to say about this is actually most of the significant mentors in my life have been women. ⁓ And I think it's important to say because I get disheartened when I hear talk about ⁓ you know how women don't support each other and you know women are

like the kind of their worst enemies in the workforce that has not been my experience. Starting from like my childhood, the strongest mentors and role models in my life were my mom and grandmother who taught me not only how to be a strong woman, but how to be unapologetic about wanting a seat at the table.

In my sporting career, as a gymnast when I was young, I had a very empowering female coach. ⁓ And in my years in banking, I had female bosses who created a lot of opportunities for me and ⁓ peers. For those who like the expression work wife, my work wife.

of trading and remains one of my best friends and she was not only an amazing friend and sounding board but a very strong advocate for me and to to senior management and other stakeholders about the value that I bring to the team. So lot of examples of like women supporting me and you know showing me how to show up for each other.

Meeyeon (34:30)
And this question is going to be kind of related to the parental leave and maternity leave, all kind of blending into just one parental leave. ⁓ What advice would you give women that are currently navigating sort of mid-career inflections, ⁓ points in finance where they often find that advancing becomes a little bit more complex because they, know, if you want to have a family, guess who has to have that family?

Hayley (34:56)
Yeah.

Exactly. Yeah, and it's a difficult question to answer without, you know, being specific about the exact inflection points because there are so many, you know, whether it's career transition or targeting a big promotion or navigating a larger role or the example you use, which is managing career alongside having a family or perhaps you have aging parents you need to care for or your own health issues. Like mid-career is hard and there's a lot of stuff that goes on in

in that period that's really tricky to navigate. But I would say the best high-level advice I could give is just stay true to yourself. And it sounds really fluffy and unhelpful, but as one navigates a long-term career,

Like our priorities and values will shift and they will change. And so staying connected to your own values and your own priorities as they evolve is absolutely essential. And you know, maybe if I just take your example to make this a little bit less abstract, you know, the example of, okay, I'm a woman, I've had a child and now I'm balancing or trying to juggle my career and my family life.

staying true to yourself here is essential because I think a couple things can happen. If I take myself as an example, I had this like 20 year old who still lives inside of me who has an idea of what she wants for me and that 20 year old is very attached to me being like a corporate baddie who like extends the ranks and has like a big powerful job and makes a lot of money and if I let her run the show

I'm at risk of taking very unaligned decisions that create a lot of anxiety, stress, and lack of fulfillment. At the same time, if I have a child and I listen to what society expects of a mother, ⁓

I might decide to de-prioritize my career, to be there more for my family, but perhaps that's not what I really want. Perhaps my values and priorities suggest that I still really want to continue to pursue my career. So I guess what I'm saying is staying true to yourself and staying in touch with your values and priorities at any given time allow you to make a lot of decisions. Mid-career comes with a lot of challenges. ⁓

And oftentimes there's no perfect solution. ⁓ There is no way to make these challenges disappear or go away. The best thing you can do is acknowledge your circumstance and optimize within it.

Having the ability to connect with your values and priorities at any given time and stay true to yourself will just allow you to optimize in the best possible way, whatever your circumstances are.

Meeyeon (37:58)
and

I can't actually, it's funny because as I talk to you, I just am getting so much out of this conversation. I can see why that you've made the career transition to becoming an executive coach today. Because just as I listen to you, feel like there's so much, you share so much of your personal experience and it is so genuine.

that I can't imagine you going a career and not having a point in your career where this is your job. Because I feel like you have so much to give back to people that are going after that big corporate career and that could use a little bit of extra advice to make sure that, you know, like you don't necessarily need to make every mistake yourself to learn along the way. Sometimes you could learn it through the experience of others.

Hayley (38:57)
Hmm.

Meeyeon (38:58)
I can see

why, and I'm so glad that after all those years in capital markets, you are a career coach today because I feel like people have so much to take from you. ⁓ How did you actually make that change though? Because, I mean, not going to lie, I think everybody knows that careers in finance, especially when you are at a higher level.

They pay very well. They're very stressful, but they pay very well. And the further you go, the harder it is to leave because you become accustomed to a certain type of lifestyle, whether it's just the way that you work and the people that you work with. And like, it's really fun at a certain point in time, but like the pay is also difficult to leave as well. ⁓ What made you make that leap?

Hayley (39:25)
Yeah. ⁓

Yeah, well first of all thank you for all your kind words, it's super sweet. So yeah, the honest truth is I got to a point where I just couldn't continue in banking anymore. I went through several huge changes consecutively. within eight months I had a baby, I came back from mat-leave, I got a huge promotion.

I moved from London to Paris due to Brexit and managed that move both personally and from a business perspective. And this all happened during the pandemic. ⁓ I just, didn't, it was a lot. It was a lot. And I didn't manage well. You know, I tried, but I became physically very unwell and mentally quite unwell eventually as well. And I tried various things to kind of salvage my career. So I tried taking on a smaller role.

Meeyeon (40:15)
That's a lot.

Hayley (40:35)
Paris and the idea behind that was just like control my controllables these are the levers I have to pull the circumstances are what they are I need to reduce my stress so you know let's try this but it wasn't enough and I needed time out ⁓ to really heal and ⁓

well. ⁓ Actually, let me qualify about that by saying our son needed more from his parents. And so my husband and I had a conversation ⁓ and it was really triggered by our experience of coming home and the nanny leaving and my son crying that the nanny was leaving because he felt more connected to his nanny than he did to us and that was heartbreaking for both of us.

And this goes back to that conversation about values. You know, I am such a career-oriented person. I am so driven to achieve. But what I learned is that my value of family is stronger than that. And I could never allow that situation to continue where my son felt more connected to his nanny than he did to us. my husband and I had a frank conversation. It was like something needs to give. He also works in finance. So the hours were crazy.

barely home and it was like we both can't continue like this. So someone has to take a step aside and who is it going to be? you know because I was quite unwell and for a variety of other reasons in terms of like the vision I had for myself in my career versus you know where he saw himself going we decided that it would be me to take this step back. So ⁓ yeah you know you mentioned the financial aspect of it that's

That's hard and actually it's a topic that comes up a lot in coaching. People who I coach who dream of different things but struggle to step away from the paycheck.

I'm not going to lie, I'm not going to pretend like I made some very brave decision. It was hard to give up the paycheck, but we're good. We have another financial income. I'm in a very fortunate position that I could leave, take time out to get well again, to make our family and our son feel more supported by his parents and connected to his parents, and pursue a new career path where the financial outlook is more uncertain.

support in that and I have savings from the years that I spent in the industry. So a unique situation and a very fortunate situation that I'm in.

Meeyeon (43:14)
And so far, that new chapter been for you? Because going from such a high intensity finance role to now being your own boss, responsible for your own complete development of your career, how has that been?

Hayley (43:31)
Yeah, it's been fascinating. So first of all, I'm learning every day, which is so fun. And I was learning every day in finance as well, and that's one of the things I loved about it, but I'm learning new things.

⁓ For example, a year ago the thought of building a website was completely just unimaginable to me. I had no idea even where to start. And now I have a website. ⁓ And you know, it's not perfect, but it is a website. ⁓ So every day I'm learning completely new skills than I had before, which is really exciting. ⁓

And ⁓ the coaching world is absolutely amazing. ⁓ It's a breath of fresh air compared to the finance world. know, the finance world is all about, you know, show up, be on, perform, tough it out, suppress it. And the coaching world is the polar opposite. ⁓ You know, it's all about... ⁓ It's all about...

self-awareness and strength through vulnerability and openness and trust. It's all about personal development. In the banking world, I attended maybe three or four corporate trainings in my 12 years, and they were all focused on hard skills. There was very little personal development angle to them.

and everything in the coaching world is about personal development and I can now see how that is equally important as, you know, hard skills development and training. Going back to your question about mindset earlier, having the skills and the competence to do something is pretty useless if it's not backed up by an empowered mindset.

And so that's what the coaching world teaches you and brings you and what I hope to now bring to the finance world. And so just one small example of that is I've developed a sales workshop together with a colleague. rather than focusing on the how-to of sales, it focuses, or our tagline is, selling starts with the salesperson. And it's all about the person, the human being behind the job.

and use perspectives and mindsets and how we get in our own way and how we can leverage our own experience and resourcefulness to do our jobs better and happier. So yeah, it's really cool. It's full of new lessons, full of new experiences and ⁓ so deeply fulfilling.

Meeyeon (46:14)
And ⁓ earlier you said that you had this little voice inside you, your 20 year old self that was like, I'm going be a corporate baddie. I'm going to climb this ladder. I'm going to do all this stuff here. ⁓ But then as you've gotten older, you've had different experiences and you know that like, you know, the corporate baddie, that's probably not where you want to be like today. ⁓ But as a coach, you're helping people, finance professionals build the success that they envision for themselves, which is unique to each person.

Hayley (46:25)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Meeyeon (46:44)
⁓ I'm curious to know what does success look like for you today and how has that evolved now?

Hayley (46:44)
Yeah.

Yeah, good question. So success for me today is entirely about purpose and impact. You know, as you said before, success was about promotions and bonuses and competition and self-image. But now I'm really driven by a deep desire to make the corporate world a more equal and humane place.

And so my goal is to coach clients individually, to coach teams, to host workshops, and to speak and write publicly about my experiences and my opinions in order to achieve that contribution that I want to make in the world. And when I look back when I'm 90 at my life, I'll know I was successful if I positively touched the life of my clients.

But the greater impact that I would like to see through my work is to see women better represented in senior roles, to see that the gender pay gap has narrowed, to see unpaid work in the household shared more evenly among women and men, to see women happier in the corporate world because they're not having to kind of climb mountains to stay in the same place.

⁓ And I'll also know if I was successful if we see more humanity in the corporate world, which would be reflected through measures like reduced stress levels, sick leave, burnouts, grievances, and just increased employee engagement, retention, and satisfaction.

So I know that I can't make all of that happen alone and there are so many people contributing towards that mission, but I would love to look back on my life and think, like, I just did my part. I did one little thing that, you know, made it the world more equal and humane.

Meeyeon (48:42)
And then I just have one more question before we go to a quick rapid fire fun round to get you know a bit better. For people that are listening that are considering pivoting in their career, whether it's within finance or somewhere beyond, if you could share with them like maybe one question that you think that they should ask themselves before making that big decision. What do you think is a question that would really help them understand whether this is the right moment for that?

Hayley (48:48)
Okay.

Yeah, so I would actually use the construct that I just used, which is if you imagine yourself at 90 looking back at your life, what do you want to see? How do you want to be remembered? What would make you feel proud? What would make you think that your time on earth was well spent? And what was the contribution that you made? And the reason I would recommend that is because all of these questions point to purpose. ⁓

And to live a purposeful life is to live a life well spent. And we find that when people are off purpose, that's when they feel anxious and unhappy. So I think pursuing purpose is a really valid objective.

Meeyeon (49:58)
And the rapid fire round, this is fun questions that are non-finance related, just for our listeners to maybe see they have something in common with you. ⁓ If there is something that comes on Netflix and you're walking by, what's a show that you'll always stop to watch?

Hayley (50:14)
okay, a couple. So any cooking show, I'm obsessed with cooking shows, ⁓ and probably Queer Eye. I think there's gonna be one final season, which I'm devastated about.

Meeyeon (50:20)
my God, I used to love that show. Is it still running?

⁓ no, I still remember

Carson. He was always my favorite person.

Hayley (50:31)
okay, I don't know what Carson, so I think there's a different cast now or something.

Meeyeon (50:34)
Oh, this is probably this is

from a this is when they first started, I want to say. And are you a dog person or a cat?

Hayley (50:37)
Okay, yeah.

dog all the way. Not now, but I grew up with two schnauzers. Yeah, and my son is lobbying hard for a dog. He's already got it named. It's named Bolt. So we'll see if we cave to that or not.

Meeyeon (50:44)
Do you have one?

⁓

feel like you probably eventually will since you've had dogs before.

Hayley (51:03)
Yeah, let's see.

Meeyeon (51:04)
It's fun, it's

a lot of work. have a corgi and I just feel like he's so much work lately.

Hayley (51:11)
It is.

Meeyeon (51:13)
And ⁓ if you could go to any destination in the world tomorrow, where would it be?

Hayley (51:21)
Antarctica.

Meeyeon (51:22)
wow, my gosh,

everyone always picks somewhere like really warm, beachy, tropical.

Hayley (51:29)
No, it's just, I'm fascinated by places that are like less traveled and I just think like Antarctica is this like unexplored world uninhabited by humans aside from scientists.

just fascinated by it.

Meeyeon (51:46)
And if you could have your very favorite meal while you're on that trip in Antarctica, what is your favorite meal?

Hayley (51:52)
tough one. So I love like Israeli food, like hummus and like halili and tabbouleh and all of these things. Yes, exactly. Love. But you know like a home-cooked meal by your mom's got to be up there as well. yeah, not sure which of mom's recipes it would be, but for dessert it would definitely be the Naniamo Bars.

Meeyeon (51:58)
Mmm.

and like baba ganoush and all those things, all the deliciousness.

Ooh, yummy. I love those. ⁓ My husband's family always makes them during Christmas and it's like, can't get enough.

Hayley (52:24)
Yes, us

too. Yeah, exactly, the best.

Meeyeon (52:28)
Well, I can't think of a... I just can't think of a better conversation that I've had all year. Thank you so much for spending the time with me to share your perspective and share your career journey. I think that everyone is going to just really be pinning this fun to listen to because I can't think of more like genuine, sincere, and really just like lesson impact podcasts that I've had.

And so to our listeners, thank you so much for joining us on this episode of Careers in Finance. If you like what you heard today, and I'm sure you do, please join us for more thoughtful conversations next time. And until next time, I will see you all very soon.

Hayley (52:56)
No.